Curse

Xenomortis · Sep 03, 2010, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

For Orders: Blessed, hands down.

Bleh. I'm not buying a 5th armour set. Just use Tormentor's, it does the same thing.

LifeInfusion · Sep 21, 2010, 04:22 AM // 04:22

There's so much bashing in this thread. I agree with Survivors as one of the sets for non-sac builds but Tormentor's has its merits in PvE. Orders/Blood is power necros (do those even exist any more) ought to invest in more armor rather than more HP, so that vampiric spells can cover the HP loss easier. It is possible to get by with 446 to 455 HP (bring a minor swap for DP) so I don't see the fuss about spikes, just use prot spirit.

The debate about armor versus health has always been this: armor has diminishing returns. +40 armor results in half the damage taken with respect to 60 armor. The reason why you want fortitude on warriors with sentinel's/dreadnaught is because +5 armor isn't going to do as much as +30HP when you have 115+ armor (which takes 37.89% of normal damage, or 62.11% less). 5 more armor at 60 armor is going to reduce about 8% damage compared to 60, while 5 more armor at 116 armor is going to reduce about 3.1% damage compared to 116. Hence we have superior absorption.

(see http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_rating)

With the advent of the armor skills cap, you're only allowed to stack +25 armor from multiple skills. Armor is at a premium cost. Things like "Stand your ground" don't stack with "watch yourself" (and "watch yourself" sucks nowadays). Armor of Earth, Resilient Weapon, Protective Was Kaolai, Obsidian Flesh, Conviction, Great Dwarf Armor are armor sources you're likely to see other than "Stand your ground". There's a few skills that raise hp, like vital boon, vital blessing (lol), "To the limit", Great Dwarf Armor (flat +60) but the only ones I would trust are Vital Boon and "To The Limit" (which is in tactics...). Keep in mind deep wound does not reduce armor and that mobs don't coordinate spikes.

Survivor is +40HP. I'd rather have +10 armor than +40HP, given that any staff/focus can either give +5 armor or +30HP, while having full survivor and +10 defense is inferior to +10 defense and +60HP. The caveat is when the mobs all do armor ignoring damage and degen. This is unlikely since AI loves to wand/autoattack and every mob usually does have non-casters. You could argue "oh, but cracked armor does nothing to me!" but that is a folly since HP is just a buffer til death just like energy storage is a buffer, not energy management. As long as the buffer is sufficiently large to deal with the spike heal recharge, you're fine. Save yourselves spam is a so-so excuse though (as are morale boosts) since at 160 armor you take 17.68% of normal damage but at 14.87% at 170 armor (~3% difference). Armor is more efficient when you have spam heals like N/Rt's.

Tormentor's is better about 95% of the time (made up number), since you take 84.1% of the normal damage from anything not holy (15.9% less). When there's mobs that travel in packs which spam holy damage you're better off without it. Tormentor's is not only a danger in Factions against Ring of judgement spam, but also judge's insight mobs. However, 16 more damage isn't all that much unless it is DOT (damage over time) type of damage, rangers/paragons/etc. with Judge's insight, or HM monks wanding you (yes, holy damage from monk wands).

For example, Word of Madness in Nightfall with judge's insight, White mantle priests with judge's insight, the azures in haunted quest (Xandra). You also see Signet of Judgment spam, holy strike on Azures in the southern shiverpeaks and they travel in packs of 4-5.

Holy damage: Heart of Holy Flame (like judge's insight, but you can usually avoid dervish attacks). Avatar of Balthazar is rare, but like judge's insight it makes you sustain 16 damage more a hit. Smite condition/smite hex, Reversal of damage, judge's intervention aren't really consistent.
Balthazar's Aura /Kirin's wrath/symbol of wrath (adjacent range), Retribution/Holy wrath (don't wand), shield of judgment (don't wand), word of censure (not seen), spear of light (seen on island guardians in factions which don't come in packs), banish,smite, Bane Signet, Castigation Signet, Signet of Mystic Wrath, balthazar's rage/ Zealous Renewal (unlikely), holy strike/stonesoul strike (touch range).

Blessed: with orders (or even awaken the blood), a contender on MM with Dark bond and Aura of the lich

Other options
minion master's: I don't MM on my necro after seeing Olias outmicro the crap out of me... but for a MM this is it. (use bloodstained on hands, IMO)

I've played around with Undertaker's Insignia and it seems to be passable when you are running WoH on a hero and have prot-spirit, since 50% is below the 60% where the +10 armor kicks in. Basically you want armor to reduce damage and all undertaker's does is make you harder to kill as you get lower in HP. A decent monk (non HB/UA) won't heal unless you are below ~75% (~320HP on a clean lvl 20 with sup vigor) but N/Rt or spamheal bars like Ether renewal will keep you around 80%. I consider 30-40% the point of dying, so 15 armor at 40% is the maximum you will likely get out of it (22.9% less damage taken) ... (at 20% you have +20 armor or 29.3% less damage taken).

Stalwart: Tormentor's is better most of the time , Elementalists hurt in HM and the majority of necros carry some sort of physical debuff (weakness and miss hexes, anyone?)

Blighter's: Hexes...cause degen/ armor ignoring loss so I don't know who thought this was a good idea

Bonelace: atrocious...given that most of Ranger damage (piercing) is from skills / conditions (though Paragons' spears also do piercing and some daggers...but again assassin damage is from chaining)

Radiant: use a weapon swap with +5 energy or +15energy, -1 energy regen, don't be lazy.

...
The only reason I see to use Survivor is if you only have one set of armor and are too lazy to change for smite heavy zones and PvP against hex/degen/ele spikes.

EssayReader · Sep 21, 2010, 06:08 AM // 06:08

A well-written post LifeInfusion.

In case you're wondering, I did read it all.

You seem to devote most of it to PvE, and then say PvP doesn't have many holy damagers anyways, therefore making Tormentor's a safe bet.

Because of your post, I'm going to change my Survivor's Insignia on my Gloves back to Tomentor's, and my Bloodstained is on my Boots by the way, same 12.5% hit chance.

In PvP I do bring my own heals, but not every monk is a decent monk either.

I also hate the fact that in order to survive with a Shield & Sword set at such low hit points that I should use Enfeeble, Reckless Haste or Insidious Parasite to save myself from strong melee units. I would like to vary my bar more, but there's no problem in running those skills on the bars I currently have.

Xenomortis · Sep 21, 2010, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

The debate about armor versus health has always been this: armor has diminishing returns.

This is wrong. Or if you argue that it isn't, the diminishing returns argument applies much more (and far sooner) to extra health.
You even explain why it's wrong with the mechanics - i.e. that every fixed AL increase decreases damage by a fixed percentage.
This isn't the case with health, adding 40 health to someone with 100 health is pretty good (a 40% increase), but adding that 40 health to someone with 500 isn't very good (less than a 10% increase).

The rest of your post I largely agree with but it doesn't say anything that hasn't already been mentioned in the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I don't MM on my necro after seeing Olias outmicro the crap out of me... but for a MM this is it. (use bloodstained on hands, IMO)

Don't try and beat a hero with Death Nova. Bombing isn't for humans. You can do it, but it's time consuming and you very quickly get bored (Death Nova has a nice green ring so you can quickly see which minions need it, but it's something you're doing all the time).
Instead, try and actually use minions to deal and absorb damage at the same time (heroes simply cannot do this) by using Fiends, Vamp Horrors and Order of Undeath.
Also, Bloodstained on head (since that's where most people put their Death rune and there's no point speccing heavily into Death if you're not MMing).

LifeInfusion · Sep 21, 2010, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Armor has diminishing returns, not that +40 armor doesn't always halve the damage, but in terms of heals and regen (+6HP/sec or more). The AI likes to top off HP and when everyone is topped off they heal minions and such. Save Yourselves is a good example, since when you have 215 or so armor on a warrior whatever isn't armor-accounting is going to be an HP spike (ineptitude, clumsiness, necromancer putrid spam, etc.) , incidental damage that can be regened (i.e. vampiric gaze), or degen (hexes, bleed/poison/etc.), so you just want a bigger buffer so that the heals can be delayed. A stoning doing 84 vs 92 damage or 52 vs 57 damage from a water trident and -9 instead of -11 from auto attack is about the most you will see. Whereas on a 60AL caster... 157 vs 171 (stoning) and 98 vs 107 (water trident) from that same 5 defense. That's what I meant by diminishing returns, the flat number is not giving as much of a damage number reduction (not %).

I've run all defense on my warrior with only +30HP on the shield and -2 stanced (not -5 20% which basically results in -1) or -20% blind for the longest time and I don't see that large a difference between 520HP and 550HP.

Since spam heals are have a minimum of roughly 100 or so HP (see soothing memories, Ghost mirror light, Word of Healing, Mend Body and Soul, Patient Spirit, ethereal Light / Glimmer of Light, Healing ribbon) there is much more potential overheal if you have lower than 500 or so HP (especially with WoH). The caveat is Spirit Bond, which basically needs 600HP (with prot spirit).

Armor is still better for PVE, seeing how we're on the Necro forum and you don't see Necros running "save yourselves".

The reason why I'd use bloodstained on hands is because arrows, projectiles, and meteor tend to hit the head, especially when they are on higher ground. Then again I don't MM anymore so I don't even use Bloodstained. Things like cripshot and such hit the feet if I recall.

Xenomortis · Sep 21, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Simple stuff first:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

The caveat is Spirit Bond, which basically needs 600HP (with prot spirit).

Demonstrably false. Spirit Bond has no such requirement with Prot Spirit since the damage is checked for Spirit Bond before Prot Spirit does the reduction. It does not matter in which order they were cast either. Checking the wiki tells you this and simple tests can confirm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Armor has diminishing returns, not that +40 armor doesn't always halve the damage, but in terms of heals and regen (+6HP/sec or more).

Well ok, if you look at it that way, fine.
But that isn't too relevant in a "More Health vs More Armour" argument. Or it is, but it isn't an argument against extra armour since something much worse happens with extra health. By opting for extra health over extra armour you take bigger damage numbers and hence require larger heals to mop up. The difference is small, but fundamentally that's the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

The reason why I'd use bloodstained on hands is because arrows, projectiles, and meteor tend to hit the head, especially when they are on higher ground. Then again I don't MM anymore so I don't even use Bloodstained. Things like cripshot and such hit the feet if I recall.

Likely hit locations that deviate from the standard (IIRC) depend on the enemy type (flying enemies hit higher, low down enemies tend to hit feet etc) and with projectiles it may depend on the enemy's height advantage due to terrain (or vice versa) but I'm not sure on the last point. I can't find the relevant information on the wiki and it's a long, dull test to do.
Whilst yes, it may be better to have Bloodstained on your hands as a result of this, it's much more convenient to have it on your headpiece as it would probably save inventory slots or prevent you having a redundant rune on an armour slot somewhere. Inventory space is at a real premium.
Since I can't find the relevant information for this though, I can't really argue further or back anything up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I've played around with Undertaker's Insignia and it seems to be passable when you are running WoH on a hero and have prot-spirit, since 50% is below the 60% where the +10 armor kicks in. Basically you want armor to reduce damage and all undertaker's does is make you harder to kill as you get lower in HP. A decent monk (non HB/UA) won't heal unless you are below ~75% (~320HP on a clean lvl 20 with sup vigor) but N/Rt or spamheal bars like Ether renewal will keep you around 80%. I consider 30-40% the point of dying, so 15 armor at 40% is the maximum you will likely get out of it (22.9% less damage taken) ... (at 20% you have +20 armor or 29.3% less damage taken).

I wanted to discuss this earlier but was pressed for time.

The trouble with Undertaker's is the armour kicks in at the wrong time. Armour is useful to stop your health dropping in the first place, that's why you want it. When your health starts getting low, you don't want more armour, you want more health (this is why we stick fortitude mods on our shield sets, not armour mods).
It's better to be tougher at the start of the damage intake (Tormentor's will be at +10, Undertaker's will at best be at +5) than towards the end, where pretty much anything will kill you unless you're protted up good.
Undertaker's suffers from the fact that it only beats Tormentor's at the stage where you're very vulnerable to a spike that'll kill you very easily (you say yourself you consider this the point of dying).

LifeInfusion · Sep 22, 2010, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Simple stuff first:

Demonstrably false. Spirit Bond has no such requirement with Prot Spirit since the damage is checked for Spirit Bond before Prot Spirit does the reduction. It does not matter in which order they were cast either. Checking the wiki tells you this and simple tests can confirm.

It was always 600HP for all those farm builds that I never used.

I'm mistaken then. I haven't noticed this before. It's good to know

I just checked: http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/600_Monk

Quote:

It is a common misconception that they need 600 or more health, but in reality they can work with nearly any amount.

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 22, 2010, 02:28 AM // 02:28

On the main topic: I can see no reason why you wouldn't run tormentor's insignia in both pve and pvp.

Xenomortis · Sep 22, 2010, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

It was always 600HP for all those farm builds that I never used.

That was for a different reason and had nothing to do with Spirit Bond (it was for higher damage on Holy Wrath and Retribution).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

On the main topic: I can see no reason why you wouldn't run tormentor's insignia in both pve and pvp.

For AB and the Competitive Missions, no, there isn't much of one.
But for other forms of PvP, Death Penalty is an important consideration (except perhaps RA where you can get away with it).
In PvP you cannot change armour once you've started. Since Survivor's is the only real buffer against Death Penalty, it's usually considered a better idea to run with it instead of trying to prevent the first death with some extra armour.
Although since deaths are less frequent now in GvG, armour has a bit more of a case there now that it used to several years ago.